Harlots Parlour

The Sex Industry Blog

JULIE BINDEL loving sex work (NOT) in the Spectator.

OUR JULIE.....GAWD BLESS HER LITTLE COTTON SOCKS

Julie Bindel, hater of sex workers, transsexuals, gay men, men, vegetarians and women who are not middle class journalists ( and ideally lesbian ) has been hating again, this time in the Spectator.

She claims that Amsterdam is regretting its liberal attitude toward prostitution and is actively closing brothels and sweeping back on positive legislation in regard to sex work. “READ HERE”

First thing I would say is that this is not true, or at least not quite in the way our Julie presents it. Amsterdam is not the model that any sex worker I know holds up as an example of excellence. All sex workers in the UK noted that it was better than the model we have here but it is not one we are generally eager to adopt. Amsterdam has legalised licensed brothels and windows. Naturally its liberal and tolerant approach attracted both tourists and sex workers from around the world, legal and illegal. The illegal workers have over time become a problem in the eyes of the authorities. The illegal brothels and workers have created an alternative and unregulated market in competition with the legal market. The result has been an increased tension between legal markets and unregulated markets. Undoubtedly criminals have to an extent exploited this situation. Has this resulted in the creation as Julie claims of a human trafficking and sexual exploitation hub? Very unlikely.

The truth is that the usual confusion between what is an illegal worker and what is a so called trafficked and exploited worker has focused the attention of the authorities who, as we know, far too easily confuse the two with very damaging and dangerous consequences for all sex workers regardless of their status.

Add to this political hot topic the fact that the red light district is in the historic and commercially valuable and sought after historic centre and you have a confusion of interests and some aggressive lobbying by all concerned parties.

The Amsterdam authorities are as prone as any authority ever is to commercial pressure which when placed alongside lobbying from pro sex work and anti sex work groups has resulted in some confused messages which Julie Bindel has exploited in this article. Some brothels and some windows have been closed. She is also right in noting that the sex worker union is small, as most sex worker unions in the west are. Sex work carries with it huge stigma and is often transitory so not surprisingly few bother to register with any organisation, never mind a trade union. She is also correct in saying that some politicians are pushing for the registration of all sex workers and for the criminalising of clients who use the services of sex workers who are not registered. Others are pushing for an increase in the age of entry into sex work. These however are debates that are attempting to deal with issues that are symptomatic not just of sex work but of all labour. Migratory issues and rights issues about labour, legal and illegal, is an issue that is affecting the world.

What Amsterdam is not doing is attempting to follow the failed Nordic, Swedish model. What Amsterdam is doing is debating how to support the human rights of sex workers while curtailing illegal immigration and the exploitation that so often accompanies it. Amsterdam is having an adult debate which Julie Bindel is incapable of doing because of her ideological position that ALL sex work is violence against women and that all Men are pimps, traffickers and rapists.

We need a similar adult debate in this country. We need a debate that places sex workers firmly in the driving seat of any discussion and one where Julie Bindel and her cohorts of hate are understood as being that rather than spokeswomen for sex workers which they certainly are not.

About Douglas Fox

29 comments on “JULIE BINDEL loving sex work (NOT) in the Spectator.

  1. Drew
    4 February, 2013

    Julie Bindel is a sad misandrist lesbian who at the end of the day won’t be happy til every man in the world is dead (considering she hates straight women, bisexual women and lesbians who don’t have the same views as her clearly shows that). No law is perfect and no industry is perfect (I mean name me one industry that hasn’t been used by criminals) yet she is more then willing to expose any flaws with regards to legalised prostitution. I wouldn’t be surprised that she will attack the Czech Republic, Australia and New Zeland for their liberal attitude towards prostitution and if that happens hopefully there will be pro-sex articles coming out that would counter her anti-sex claims.

    Thing is until the number of women paying for sex espeically women paying men for sex is the same as men paying for sex then misandrists like her won’t stop spouting her bullshit. One thing that misandrists are losing battle with is their anti-porn war giving that the number of women paying, viewing, enjoying and watching porn and if porn is getting more accepted and enjoyed by women eventually prostitution would enjoy that luxury too.

    I hate that she calls herself a feminist, feminism is not about misandry but the sad thing is misandrists always saw feminism as a good opportunity to get their voices heard and in some ways they have succeeded in getting their own way. These F.I.N.Os (or Feminists in Name Only) need to be stopped before all of Europe (and their goal the whole world) will be a misandrist Saudi Arabia.

    I’m not sure if this will work but maybe a sex positive political party could help (like the one in Australia) but I don’t know anything about politics other that the anti-sex movement has influence in all three major parties.

  2. theredneck
    6 February, 2013

    As a conservative Christian who thinks sex is pretty awesome, I’m no fan of Ms. Bindel–but this article (basically the equivalent of shouting “lesbo feminazi!”), doesn’t even attempt to address the actual points she made.

    Ms. Bindel references the extremely high percentage of women who are trafficked and forced into the sex trade (BTW, there’s no need to refer to a slave as a “so-called trafficked and exploited worker.” For 75-80% of them (in the US, at least), there’s no “so called” about it.). For all your rhetoric, the fact remains that prostitution, most of it involving women and girls who are forced to have sex with more than a dozen men a day, has exploded since Amsterdam legalized it.

    Currently, we have more slaves in brothels and truckstops than we ever had in the cotton fields, and they live more horrifying lives. Denying this problem because “oh, hey, she hates men, to hell with her” does nothing to resolve this situation–or give the indication that you care to.

  3. Douglas Fox
    6 February, 2013

    Dear “theredneck”, evidence please. On this blog you are talking ( generally) to real sex workers, myself included, We are not the stereotypes of sex workers whom Julie Bindel and her type exploit to impress her rad fem lynch mob. Real sex workers want rights not rhetoric that has no basis in fact. If you listen to sex workers you will realise that the myth of the sex slave is a repugnant slur used to dismiss their voices. Sex workers rely on evidence and their own experiences not the imagined sex slave mythology of Bindel created and abused to line her own pockets.

  4. Gina
    10 February, 2013

    You say you don’t like the Amsterdam model. What model would you prefer? What model exists that would both legalise all forms of sex work but also protect its employees? If you’ve addressed this elsewhere, please tell me the link, since I was just sent here by Thaddeus Blanchette. I understand that not all sex workers are forced into their profession unwillingly, but can you deny that there are a great number of people who are?

    I also wish men (the primary consumer base) would figure out a better way to express their sexuality. Not all men are scum, but there are so many ignorant sexist assholes out there it pisses me off.

    • Douglas Fox
      11 February, 2013

      Most sex workers and activists reference New Zealand which decriminalised sex work over ten years ago. The New Zealand government listened to sex when formulating the legislation.

      What sex workers in general want is to be allowed to work together, in New Zealand it is up to four sex workers, in one place with out fear of arrest for brothel keeping. Larger premises have to apply for a license which requires them to meet basic requirements the same as any other business offering services to the public ie access for disabled etc etc.

      New Zealand has encouraged unions to form and because there is no risk criminal prosecution then sex workers can access the police and social workers more easily.

      Will this stop all abuse NO but then abuse exists in every industry. What decriminalisation does is allow the industry to exists openly which allows abuses within the industry to be accessed and solved.

      Stigma is the main problem of course and again that will only be dealt with through openness and by allowing access rather than criminalising the industry and forcing it underground where it is impossible to deal with issues and problems.

      Remember women do buy sex as well and we do need more research into the this area of the industry.

      Men bad? Not all. They like women are sometimes bad and sometimes not. That’s just life.

  5. naughtyneighbor
    16 February, 2013

    I agree with theredneck at least twice — I agree that sex is awesome, and that calling Ms. Bindel names is not as useful as a reasoned critique of her thesis. It is easier, and probably feels good, but it doesn’t making anything better.

    Unfortunately, resorting to name-calling and personal attacks detracts from the point you are trying to make. I think we can do better than that, don’t you?

  6. Douglas Fox
    17 February, 2013

    Julie Bindel hates sex workers and advocates policies that deny sex workers basic human rights. I have simply pointed that fact out. On numerous occasions this blog has spoken about positive policies that could be adopted to make sex work safer and that would negate the stigma associated with sex work.. In this post I HAVE ponted out that her analysis of the Amsterdam situation is wrong. I also firmly believe that J Bindel is not a feminist and has no interest in women’s rights other than those defined by a very narrow dogmatic and ideologically defined basis that encourages state persecution of both women and men who oppose her views. I make no apology for opposing her.

  7. Pingback: Guardian Journalist Julie Bindel: Morrissey is wrong to say gay men are never violent | Musings of a Mild Mannered Man

  8. The Redneck
    1 March, 2013

    –Dear “theredneck”, evidence please….
    real sex workers…
    Real sex workers…
    rhetoric that has no basis in fact. …
    the myth of the sex slave is a repugnant slur used to dismiss their voices…
    the imagined sex slave mythology–
    Your “imagined sex slave mythology” has resulted in the horrific abuse of more than 27 million current sex slaves, so you may want to turn the “self-righteousness” meter down just a notch.

    As for evidence….

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0309/feature1/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19831913

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/12/slaverys-global-comeback/266354/

    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1952335,00.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/21/south-san-francisco-sex-slavery_n_2734350.html

    http://articles.cnn.com/2001-03-08/world/women.trafficking_1_prostitution-slave-trade-asylum-seekers?_s=PM:WORLD

    Yeah–tell me more about the myth of sex slavery that we use as a slur….

    –I make no apology for opposing her.–
    I don’t believe anybody wanted an apology for opposing her–we just want you to provide some facts to back up your argument. Shouting “lesbo feminazi” won’t convince anybody over the age of 12.

    –Julie Bindel hates sex workers and advocates policies that deny sex workers basic human rights.–
    While I’m no friend of Ms. Bindel, she’s not the one shilling for slavers.

    • Douglas Fox
      1 March, 2013

      Dear The Redneck

      Here are some academic papers for you to work your way through for starters. If you read the blog you will note many articles which will enlighten you on how statistics over “sex slaves” are manipulated to create a moral panic. Laura Agustin book “Sex at the Margins” also deals with how easily sex work migration is conflated with trafficking because laws negatively interpreted or ignore truths to favour populist prejudice against sex workers.

      Also remember that no sex worker, myself included, denies trafficking but point out that human trafficking for sexual exploitation is tiny if you look at evidence.
      The articles you have given as proof represent an industry that earns millions of dollars from promoting a mythology that has little factual proof to back it up. In contrast sex workers around the world argue fro decriminalisation and for laws that will protect them.

      As for taking the slavers shilling LOL….I wish that myself and other activists got paid anything at all for asking for human rights for ourselves and other sex workers.

      I doubt however you will ever be swayed and will always prefer emotionalised mythologies to facts but hey ho such is life. But read the blog and at least you may learn something even though you will no doubt miss that emotional heart tug you seem to prefer.

      http://www.policeprostitutionandpolitics.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=105%3Aacademics-research-articles-support-decriminalization&catid=34%3Aarticles-and-pdfs&Itemid=60

      • Editor
        1 March, 2013

        I some how think red neck will not be interested. Hopefully the undecided reader will understand and be swayed.

  9. theredneck
    2 March, 2013

    Just which of these links are academic papers on the subject? Your first “paper” doesn’t mention sex or prostitution once. The second is a dead link, and the third is a puff piece on a group trying to legalize prostitution–where more than 9 out of 10 quotes come from the group being academically fellated (including that prostitutes are no more likely than other women to be exposed to HIV), and no evidence at all is provided to back up your ridiculous claim. The second page provides three cherry-picked quotes, which nobody can verify unless they’re German, that don’t dispute the fact that 75-80% of prostitutes are slaves. Just why should I accept these over the facts noted consistently by everybody who isn’t a pro-prostitution activist?

    Oh yeah–she’s a lesbo feminazi. Besides that, though….

    It’s great that you admit trafficking exists, but I daresay 75-80% is a bit more than “tiny.”

    http://www.unece.org/press/pr2004/04gen_n03e.html

    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=25524&Cr=trafficking&Cr1

    http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=forcedlabor

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/jul/03/childprotection.internationalcrime

    http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/usa.htm

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/magazine/25SEXTRAFFIC.html?pagewanted=1

    –The articles you have given as proof represent an industry that earns millions of dollars from promoting a mythology that has little factual proof to back it up.–
    CNN, BBC, the UN, and National Geographic earn money by promoting a mythology?

    And may I remind you that the prostitution industry earns BILLIONS of dollars from promoting their point of view? Attacking motives is not a very bright move on your part.

    –As for taking the slavers shilling LOL….I wish that myself and other activists got paid anything at all for asking for human rights for ourselves and other sex workers.–
    First, I didn’t claim you got paid:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    Second, if you were terribly concerned with human rights for sex workers you’d pipe up a bit more about the basic right to not be a slave–so perhaps you’ll understand if I don’t fall all over myself in admiration for your selfless sacrifice.

    –I doubt however you will ever be swayed and will always prefer emotionalised mythologies to facts but hey ho such is life.–
    Which is why I’ve got the evidence, and you have a bunch of propaganda from pro-prostitution groups.

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news (OK, OK, I sort of enjoy rubbing your nose in it), but calling me “emotional” won’t change of invalidate the facts I’ve presented any more than calling Ms. Bindel a man-hating lesbian invalidates the facts that she brought to the table.

    –Hopefully the undecided reader will understand and be swayed.–
    Such readers DO understand–that’s why the movement to save sex slaves is growing, and thousands of women are being rescued–despite your best efforts. Yet again, you may want to turn that “self-righteousness” dial down a notch.

  10. Douglas Fox
    2 March, 2013

    Dearest Redneck,

    Sorry but you have provided no evidence. Academically validated research that has been methodically peer reviewed please not articles that perpetuate prejudiced that feeds the profits of NGOs. Many of these NGOs have a vested interest in maintaining the sex slave myth rather than treating sex workers as human beings or understanding that criminalising consensual adults will not stop abuse but rather create the environment in which abuse will prosper.

    As I have said no sex worker that I know has ever denied human trafficking but rather argues that we understand what trafficking “really means” and how best do you deal with real sexual abuse. Remember sexual slavery is already a crime and further punishing consenting sex workers will not stop abuse but achieve the opposite.

    You talk of hundreds of thousands if not millions of sex slaves and yet some how no one can find them which is a little weird don’t you think after all brothels are hardly difficult to find. Pentameter 1 and 11 here in the UK
    (Will the real sex slave please stand up? (O’Connell Davidson, 2006) failed despite hundreds of raids to find these illusive victims, indeed the tiny handful they found somehow the police managed to loose again. Read the Guardian article.

    Some of the examples you have given talk about child sex trafficking. Remember that is already a crime. Persecuting consenting adults is not going to stop this crime but rather make it harder to find victims in an industry that will become hidden. Plus remember to catch the clients you will have to persecute the willing sex workers like myself and force us to give evidence against our clients which I can tell you we won’t.

    Many countries in the developing world have practices and customs that I do not like (and presumably you don’t) such as in India where it is sadly still common to sell young girls to brothels and into domestic slavery and of course into debt slavery etc. Going in as the great white saviour and criminalising the many thousands in India who willing work as sex workers and who are very well organised in may areas re unions, far better than in the west, will not stop ingrained cultural practices. To stop those you need to educate and empower. Re India remember there is also a strong religious element within sex worker structures and equally a strong religious ie evangelical Christian element in saving sex workers. Moral-ism and the rhetoric of trafficking ngos seem peculiarly close.

    I am not being self righteous, that is your territory and nor am I calling dear Julie B a feminazie LOL…that again is your language. The fact she hates sex workers and veggies and blah blah is known by simply referencing her work and understanding that with out us she would have to get a proper job. We after all pay her bills which makes her a pimp I think in her language ? :0

    Anyway I know that I am talking to a brick wall but seriously the links given previously all work and here is some more references for you. Easy to find on google. They will keep you busy and you never know you may actually learn something and change your mind.

    http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2006-07-27-davidson-en.html

    http://publications.iom.int/bookstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=17_20&products_id=226

    The Impact of the Prostitution Reform Act on the Health and Safety Practices of Sex Workers (Abel, Fitzgerald, Brunton, 2006)

    Taking the crime out of sex work: New Zealand sex workers’ fight for decriminalisation (Abel et al, 2010)

    Sex at the Margins: Migration, Labour Markets and the Rescue Industry (Agustin, 2007)

    Sex workers and Violence Against Women: Utopic Visions or Battle of the Sexes? (Agustin, 2011)

    The Price of Sex: Prostitution, policy, and society (Brooks-Gordon, 2006)

    Why Norway banned the purchase of sexual services: Ideas and prostitution policy (Bucken-Knapp & Karlsson Schaffer, 2010)

    Sex Work Now (Campbell & O’Neill, 2006)

    Defining Sex Work as Work for Human Rights and Harm Reduction (Cusick, 2007)

    The Swedish Sex Purchase Act: Claimed Success and Documented Effects (Dodillet & Östergren, presented at the International Workshop: Decriminalizing Prostitution and

    Beyond: Practical Experiences and Challenges. The Hague, March 3 and 4, 2011)

    The impact of organised crime in the UK: revenues and economic and social costs (Dubourg & Prichard, 2003)

    Hit And Run: Anti Trafficking In Thailand (Empower Foundation, 2012)

    Whats the Cost of a Rumour? (Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women, 2011)

    Sex Work and the Law (Harcourt, Egger, Donovan, 2005)

    Home Office Research Study 279 Tackling Street Prostitution: Towards an holistic approach (Hester & Westmarland, 2004)

    Trafficking in Human Beings and the 2006 World Cup in Germany (International Organisation for Migration, 2006)

    Health needs and service use of parlour-based prostitutes compared with street-based prostitutes: a cross-sectional survey (Jeal & Salisbury 2007)

    Beyond gender: an examination of exploitation in sex work (Jenkins, 2009)

    The Swedish Law to Criminalise Clients: a Failed Experiment in Social Engineering (Jordan, 2010)

    Slavery, Forced Labour, Debt Bondage, and Human Trafficking: From Conceptual Confusion to Targeted Solutions (Jordan, 2011)

    Violence and Sex Work in Britain (Kinnell, 2008)

    Four hundred thousand Swedish perverts (Kulick, Journal of Lesbian and Gay Studies, 2005)

    Trafficking, demand and the sex market (Lin Lean Lim, ILO, 2004)

    Migrant Workers in the UK Sex Industry (Mai, 2009)

    Prostitution, Power and Freedom (O’Connell Davidson, 1998)

    Is Trafficking in Human Beings Demand Driven? A Multi-Country Pilot Study (O’Connell Davidson, 2003)

    Men, middlemen and migrants: the demand side of sex trafficking, (O’Connell Davidson, 2006)

    Will the real sex slave please stand up? (O’Connell Davidson, 2006)

    Contested Commodities (Radin, 1996, quoted in Men, middlemen and migrants: the demand side of sex trafficking’, (O’Connell Davidson, 2006)

    Exploring diversity within the sex industry: an investigation into the structure and composition of sex markets in Britain (Pitcher, 2010)

    Risk of sexually transmitted infections and violence among indoor-working female sex workers in London: the effect of migration from Eastern Europe (Platt, Grenfell et al, 2011)

    Regulating sex for sale: Prostitution policy reform in the UK (Phoenix, editor, 2009)

    Experiences of commercial sex in a representative sample of adults (Rissel et al, 2003)

    Dollars Are a Girl’s Best Friend? Female Tourists’ Sexual Behaviour in the Caribbean (Sánchez Taylor, 2001)

    Sex Work: A risky business (Sanders, 2004)

    Male Sexual Scripts: Intimacy, Sexuality and Pleasure in the Purchase of Commercial Sex (Sanders, 2008)

    Paying for Pleasure: Men Who Buy Sex (Sanders, 2008)

    Prostitution: Sex Work, Policy and Politics (Sanders, O’Neill, & Pitcher, 2009)

    Sex Work Stigma: Opportunist Migrants in London (Scambler, 2007)

    The Subject of Prostitution: Sex/Work, Law and Social Theory (Scoular, 2009)

    Living and working in areas of street sex work (Scoular, Pitcher, Campbell, Hubbard & O’Neill, 2006)

    Prostitution, women, and misuse of the law: the fallen daughters of Eve (Self, 2003)

    Sex Work, Migration, Health (TAMPEP, 2009)

    Navigating Risk:Lessons From the Dockside Sex Trade for Reducing Violence in South Africa’s Prostitution Industry (Trotter, 2007)

    Building Partnerships on HIV and Sex Work (UNAIDS, 2011)

    What happens to women who sell sex? Report of a unique occupational cohort (Ward &

  11. theredneck
    3 March, 2013

    –Sorry but you have provided no evidence.­-
    You know, except for the large number of articles, papers, links to various universities….

    –Academically validated research that has been methodically peer reviewed please not articles that perpetuate prejudiced that feeds the profits of NGOs.–
    And how methodically peer-reviewed is a selection of quotes from COYOTE?

    –Many of these NGOs have a vested interest in maintaining the sex slave myth rather than treating sex workers as human beings–
    You mean by helping to keep them as property?

    Dude, you’re caught. The evidence is in. Claiming an obvious fact as a “myth” only proves that you don’t care about the facts.

    –As I have said no sex worker that I know has ever denied human trafficking–
    You only pretend, knowing full well it’s untrue, that it’s a tiny, obviously unimportant amount.

    –You talk of hundreds of thousands if not millions of sex slaves and yet some how no one can find them which is a little weird don’t you think after all brothels are hardly difficult to find.–
    Because it’s not like they’re criminals, who hide from the authorities, or something…..

    –Some of the examples you have given talk about child sex trafficking. Remember that is already a crime.–
    One that, thanks to the efforts of people like you, rarely get caught and punished.

    — a strong religious ie evangelical Christian element in saving sex workers. Moral-ism and the rhetoric of trafficking ngos seem peculiarly close.–
    Yeah, those freaky religious nuts and their hegemonic anti-slavery views. Bastards keep pokin’ our noses in your business….

    Amusingly enough, public view has switched from a moralistic position–prostitutes as criminals–to the understanding that a large majority are actually victims. It’s people like you who would rather take us back to the bad ol’ days when you could buy a woman and assume she’s just a ‘ho, without thinking about whether somebody had to “break bitches,” in the immortal words of Mac Dre, to get them to agree.

    –Plus remember to catch the clients you will have to persecute the willing sex workers like myself and force us to give evidence against our clients which I can tell you we won’t.–
    Which makes you an accomplice to a crime.

    –I am not being self righteous, that is your territory–
    “If you listen to sex workers you will realise that the myth of the sex slave is a repugnant slur used to dismiss their voices.”
    “an industry that earns millions of dollars from promoting a mythology”
    “I doubt however you will ever be swayed and will always prefer emotionalised mythologies to facts but hey ho such is life.”
    “Many of these NGOs have a vested interest in maintaining the sex slave myth rather than treating sex workers as human beings”
    “Going in as the great white saviour” (And playing the race-card, for extra proof that you don’t have an argument and you know it!)
    “with out us she would have to get a proper job. We after all pay her bills which makes her a pimp I think in her language ? :0″
    “I know that I am talking to a brick wall”
    “you never know you may actually learn something”
    Yeah, don’t you start being self-righteous like me….

    –nor am I calling dear Julie B a feminazie LOL…that again is your language. —
    So you tell us she hates all men, but I can’t say you paint her as a ‘feminazi’…. Semantics, anyone?

    Arguing about the wording doesn’t change the basic fact–rather than explain how any of the points she made are wrong, you told us she’s a feminist who hates everyone and expected us to therefore ignore her. Those of us who understand the term “ad hominem” wanted something a bit mroe substantial.

    –seriously the links given previously all work–
    Except that as I noted, they lead to pages consisting of lists–some of the links on those lists are irrelevant, some of them don’t work, and some of them are blatant propaganda.

    –They will keep you busy and you never know you may actually learn something and change your mind.–
    What I’m learning so far is that pimps and the few prostitutes lucky enough to actually keep some of the money are very, very interested in protecting their cash cow, even at the expense of keeping the majority of prostitutes enslaved.

    Moreover, I’m somewhat amused that CNN, National Geographic, and the UN are sources I’m supposed to ignore–but I’m supposed to be impressed with articles about sporting events that are obviously intended to pad out your list instead of providing information to “educate” me about why basic facts aren’t true. Likewise, I got a chuckle out of the idea that news organizations can’t be trusted because they’re making money off this “myth”–but I should trust pro-prostitution activists instead.

  12. Douglas Fox
    3 March, 2013

    Dear Redneck,

    As I said it is like talking to a brick wall.
    Nothing I or any sex worker will ever say will change your mind sooooo yes I’m a sex slave and yes there are millions of sex slaves like me just waiting for you to save us so please hurry up the chains are beginning to chaff ROFL

    I won’t be replying to your comments any more and I don’t think anyone else will. No point talking to someone who will not listen. Good luck.

    Try a red fem site, although I am sure you already do. They will love you but I’m sure they already do.

  13. Douglas Fox
    3 March, 2013

    Out of curiosity Redneck what is the rad fem save the “million”s of sex slaves perspective on this kind of behaviour AND on Ruhama ? Just curious like many of our readers.

    http://harlotsparlour.com/2013/03/03/please-report-this-youtube-video/

  14. TheRedneck
    4 March, 2013

    –yes I’m a sex slave —
    I didn’t say that you are a sex slave. I also didn’t ~say~ that you’re willing to ignore the men and women who are to keep your money rolling in–but I do believe I’ve pretty strongly implied the latter, while I have not the former.

    I find what I’ve actually said plenty brilliant, witty, and creative enough, and no doubt you find what I’ve actually said offensive enough–editing me serves neither of us, except by calling your credibility into (further) question..

    –Nothing I or any sex worker will ever say will change your mind–
    Actually, my mind has been changed by the words of ‘sex workers’–before, like many, I thought of prostitution as a victimless crime, and of prostitutes as “fallen women”–women (and sometimes men) so greedy and/or lazy that they’d rather screw strangers than get a real job, or utter sluts who figure if you’re going to have more men in your oven than Jeffrey Dahmer, you might as well get paid for it. Now that I understand the overwhelming majority of these women (and girls, seeing as the average age for a starting “sex worker” is 12) are slaves who have sex with 10-30 men a day because they’re forced to, my mind has indeed changed, from seeing prostitutes as criminals to understanding them as victims. Amusingly enough, it’s you, not I, who’s been fighting change.

    –yes there are millions of sex slaves like me just waiting for you to save us so please hurry up the chains are beginning to chaff ROFL–
    Probably more than your assurances that their conditions are just fine will. I do indeed support groups and efforts that save sex-slaves. It’s just too bad that you insist on working against rather than with us.

    –No point talking to someone who will not listen.–
    Which is why noting all those newspaper articles and university studies proving your “mythology” didn’t do any good, I reckon.

    –Try a red fem site, although I am sure you already do. They will love you but I’m sure they already do.–
    1. I am a conservative–a Neo-Confederate, in fact–and a protestant Christian. Rest assured that the rad/red feminists (I’m not sure if that misspelling was meant to imply they’re socialist–in which case I agree–or whether it was genuine typo) hate me considerably more than they will ever hate you… mostly because they’re not terribly bright, but that’s an issue for a different day.

    2. Comparing me to rad/red feminists is certainly offensive, and had I not spent years on the internet may well have hurt my feelings–but it doesn’t actually prove or support any of your disproven claims or blatantly false accusations either.

    If screaming “lesbo feminazi” at the top of your lungs about an actual lesbian feminist won’t invalidate any of the facts she’s presented, then it surely won’t stop me.

    –Out of curiosity Redneck what is the rad fem save the “million”s of sex slaves perspective on this kind of behaviour AND on Ruhama ?–
    I’d assume the rad fem’s perspective is that the reporter needs to die because he’s a man, the nuns need to die because they’re Christian, and the prostitute needs to die because she’s engaging in capitalism.

    MY perspective, on the other hand, is that your ‘article’ is one of the most blatant smear jobs I’ve seen in years, containing several allegations that are most likely slander–although it’s hard to tell because you refuse to provide any details, such as the name of the reporter given a reward (or what he was given the reward for, making the most likely option that they had no idea about this video (assuming it existed at the time). How surprising that you claim the people who might interfere with your paycheck are all evil.

  15. Douglas Fox
    4 March, 2013

    Dear Redneck

    If you had bothered to watch the video you would have clearly seen the reporters name “Eamon Dillon.” The story and video was the leader in the Sunday Sun newspaper in Ireland.
    The “Magdalene laundries” scandal is well reported and there is factual evidence for the abuse suffered in these premises provided by the survivors who are presently trying to claim compensation. Use google and do some research.
    Ruhama is presently leading the campaign to criminalise clients and (despite the millions of sex slaves you tell us are out there) their main witness is an alleged “survivor” who is actually a former pimp who ran numerous brothels and has several aliases. She is also someone who has never been charged funny enough but someone who will profit if Ruhama succeeds in criminalising clients and sex workers are forced to work secretly and for pimps who will exploit both clients and sex workers for profit. I know you will say more scurrilous propaganda but try google and do some research rather than rely on me to feed you evidence which you don’t even read.
    And by the way the average age into sex work is not 12. That is part of the story you have chosen to believe, part of the myth.
    Actually the rad fems and the evangelicals and the Christian right rub along very well together when it comes to hurting sex workers. I could provide you with evidence (there is plenty on this blog)but why not do just a little research into the stories behind the stories of sex slaves you believe in so much? Why not try to look from a different perspective on the stories you read from developing countries and approach them with an understanding of the cultural nuances and the historical perspectives involved.
    You won’t of course but we keep on trying.

    Ohh and if you have ever read Julie Bindel and her articles you will understand her attitude toward the groups I mentioned. As a gay man her Lesbianism is irrelevant other than in her friendship and support for well know anti sex work journalists and writers and red feminists who also happen to be lesbian. also if you study third wave feminism and the feminist movement you will know about the women only movement which is predominantly Lesbian and which a branch argues that heterosexual sex is always an act of violence on women. Julie Bindel was and is a firm advocate of that ideological position which the readers of this blog understand.

    Now Reneck unless you are going to read the articles and references I have given and stop screaming that every sex worker like myself is denying the existence of sex slaves or cares nothing for human trafficking, then please go and play elsewhere.

  16. theredneck
    4 March, 2013

    Ahh, yes, they did flash the name for about three seconds. Good thing too, because I could look and see that he got the award four years ago. Yeah, that’s an obvious link between them and every story he does, right?

    –The “Magdalene laundries” scandal is well reported–
    Your claim that the people who run Ruhama were behind the scandal, on the other hand, is simply another sad attempt at an ad hominem.

    So far there are a lot of accusations, but I haven’t seen the court cases come out yet. Accusations do not equal crimes.

    –(despite the millions of sex slaves you tell us are out there)–
    Me, CNN, NBC, the UN, several universities–but we’re all just shills for some NGO, right?

    –their main witness is an alleged “survivor” who is actually a former pimp who ran numerous brothels and has several aliases.–
    I checked out their site. They have several survivors that post there–not to mention they’re not by far the only anti-slavery group–so yet again, your sad attempt at an ad hominem fails.

    — know you will say more scurrilous propaganda —
    Yeah, all that whack-job stuff from National Geographic and CNN….

    –but try google and do some research rather than rely on me to feed you evidence which you don’t even read.–
    You’ve been trying to feed me something, alright, but it ain’t evidence.

    –And by the way the average age into sex work is not 12. That is part of the story you have chosen to believe, part of the myth.–

    http://gvnet.com/childprostitution/USA.htm

    http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Story?id=1596778&page=1

    http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/Publications/e10062633.pdf

    http://www.politifact.com/oregon/statements/2013/mar/02/diane-mckeel/Is-average-age-entry-sex-trafficking-between-12-an/

    http://www.sp2.upenn.edu/restes/CSEC.htm

    http://www.harbour.sfu.ca/freda/articles/traf1.htm

    Again–yeah, some myth.

    –Actually the rad fems and the evangelicals and the Christian right rub along very well together when it comes to hurting sex workers.–
    Yeah, what with our attempts to stop them from being raped and enslaved.

    –I could provide you with evidence–
    But you’d rather provide links to puff-pieces on COYOTE and smear-pieces from prostitution advocates.

    –Why not try to look from a different perspective on the stories you read from developing countries and approach them with an understanding of the cultural nuances and the historical perspectives involved.–
    Because cultural nuances and historical perspectives do not excuse slavery.

    –Ohh and if you have ever read Julie Bindel and her articles you will understand her attitude toward the groups I mentioned.–
    Well, that’s lovely–but back to the point:

    Screaming that she’s a lesbian who hates men does not refute any of the facts about sex-slavery that she provided. Screeching that I’m of the same mind does not refute any of the facts about sex-slavery that I’ve provided…
    –but we keep on trying–
    Yeah. I noticed.

    –Now Reneck unless you are going to read the articles and references I have given–
    I’ve read through a few of them–enough to notice that they’re utter crap. How much of it do you expect me to slog through?

    –and stop screaming that every sex worker like myself is denying the existence of sex slaves or cares nothing for human trafficking,–
    Your own actions shout that far more loudly than I ever could.

    — then please go and play elsewhere.–
    I b’lieve I will. I believe the two of us together (and I’ll admit, you more than I) have illustrated just what prostitution advocates are willing to ignore and cover up, and just what they have for an argument

  17. Douglas Fox
    4 March, 2013

    Dear Redneck

    I don’t understand your point in commenting. You have made it quite clear that I and every sex worker who does not claim to be a “victim” is a liar. The “survivors” of the Magdalene laundries are liars. Our evidence is propaganda and lies and only you know the truth because well because.

    Fine. No problem.You win

    If the heavenly host arrived in a fiery chariot unless they had a CNN or a FOX news endorsement they would also be liars.

    Readers can make their own minds up.

    A little more about the Ruhama and the Magdalene laundries if you want to be bothered. But I wouldn’t bother its all lies and propaganda and National Geographic haven’t endorsed it so no point really.

    http://harlotsparlour.com/2013/02/08/2402/

  18. theredneck
    4 March, 2013

    –I don’t understand your point in commenting.–
    Because you continue lying, and I have an urge to correct what you’ve said about me.

    –You have made it quite clear that I and every sex worker who does not claim to be a “victim” is a liar. —
    I’ve made it clear that YOU are a liar, but I did not say that every sex worker who does not claim to be a victim (and if even you admit that there are victims, even if you pretend it’s a miniscule amount, why put the word in quote marks) is a liar. Indeed, some 20-25% of “sex workers” are not victims.

    –The “survivors” of the Magdalene laundries are liars.–
    I did not make this claim. Slandering your opponent will not remove facts.

    –Our evidence is propaganda and lies and only you know the truth because well because.–
    Because I’ve got evidence to back it up, while you’ve got “404” links, irrelevant articles, and puff pieces written by pro-prostitution organizations.

    –If the heavenly host arrived in a fiery chariot unless they had a CNN or a FOX news endorsement they would also be liars.–
    Oh, I doubt they’d get an endorsement from CNN–but that’s beside the point. If you personally told me the heavenly host had arrived in fiery chariot, I’d ask for a trustworthy source.

    –Readers can make their own minds up.–
    Which is why Amsterdamn is moving away from legalization.

    –But I wouldn’t bother its all lies and propaganda and National Geographic haven’t endorsed it so no point really.

    http://harlotsparlour.com/2013/02/08/2402/–

    So I’m supposed to dismiss National Geographic, CNN, BBC, etc., etc., etc., because they’re all biased… and take the word of an anonymous blogger who stands to profit off the legalization of prostitution instead….
    .

  19. Douglas Fox
    4 March, 2013

    Dear Redneck

    This is becoming fun in a weird sort of way.

    You have not given any evidence. I am sorry but you haven’t.

    You have dismissed peer reviewed academic articles and journalist as all being liars. You have dismissed concerns over the involvement of Ruhama and their connection with the Magdalene laundries and instead you give as evidence documentaries that do not deal with the complexities of a subject that is not black and white as you would have it.

    Criminalising sex work or the clients of sex workers will not stop activities which are already illegal.

    “Because I’ve got evidence to back it up, while you’ve got “404″ links, irrelevant articles, and puff pieces written by pro-prostitution organizations”

    And redneck your evidence is unbiased? All the academics are liars?

    By the way I have not called you a liar the article is about our very own globe trotting Julie B and besides what is a Christian Redneck doing in S Korea?.

    Just curious.

  20. theredneck
    4 March, 2013

    –You have not given any evidence. I am sorry but you haven’t.–
    Except the multiple links from news organizations, universities, government agencies, and the UN. But yeah, besides that, no evidence.

    –You have dismissed peer reviewed academic articles and journalist as all being liars.–
    Yet again, you are lying about my claims.

    — You have dismissed concerns over the involvement of Ruhama and their connection with the Magdalene laundries–
    I have done no such thing. What I did do was state that I don’t know the truth of them, that there are conflicting accounts, and I’m not going to assume they’re guilty before the trial.

    –And redneck your evidence is unbiased?–
    Are you telling me that the FBI, the UN, various universities, the BBC, CNN, etc., are biased?

    –All the academics are liars?–
    Again, I did not claim that all the academics are liars.

    –instead you give as evidence documentaries that do not deal with the complexities of a subject that is not black and white as you would have it.–
    I don’t remember posting a single documentary. Can you show me the link?

    –Criminalising sex work or the clients of sex workers will not stop activities which are already illegal.–
    And criminalizing other crimes doesn’t put a stop to them either–so let’s just scrap all laws, right?

    Didn’t Ms. Bindel quote some old SNL sketch about cops in Amsterdam who find their job so much easier now that murder is legal?

    –By the way I have not called you a liar–
    That’s because I haven’t lied. Unlike you, I ~have~ an argument, which means I don’t need to make blatant false accusations regarding my opponents.

    –besides what is a Christian Redneck doing in S Korea?–
    Not buying any women–sorry to disappoint you!

    Amusingly enough, I don’t much care whether prostitution is legal. I have far too much self-respect to actually engage in it on either end, but if two consenting adults decide to make a trade of that variety–well, it’s wrong, but I don’t see it necessary for the government to put a stop to it. MY issue is with the fact that a large majority of prostitutes are slaves–and THAT, I do think the government has a duty to put a stop to.

    Unfortunately, the evidence so far indicates that you don’t.

  21. Douglas Fox
    4 March, 2013

    Dear Redneck,

    This is becoming dull now.

    http://gvnet.com/childprostitution/USA.htm

    This link on child prostitution in the USA. Firstly what has child abuse to to with sex slaves? or adult sex work. This is paedophilia. Further criminalising consenting sex work will have no affect on this already illegal activity and the figures mentioned are not validated by facts by the way.

    I am too tired to give you the links or argue but please use google with a little imagination to find them. And anyway if I did give you links you wouldn’t read them anyway would you or you would dismiss them as lies by pro prostitution lobbyists.

    As I have said nothing that I am going to say or any sex worker says will convince you that your obsession that the majority of sex workers are slaves is just wrong. Again I repeat there is no evidence that is independently authenticated to support these accusations.

    No doubt you will respond with another round of abuse but I don’t think I or anyone else will bother reading.

    Have a nice life.

  22. Douglas Fox
    4 March, 2013

    One last thing Redneck

    Without looking at any sex worker database I did one google search and found this.

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/215475.pdf

    The author(s) shown below used Federal funds provided by the U.S.
    Department of Justice and prepared the following final report:
    Document Title: Estimating Human Trafficking into the United
    States: Development of a Methodology
    Author(s): Heather J. Clawson ; Mary Layne ; Kevonne
    Small
    Document No.: 215475
    Date Received: September 2006
    Award Number: T-001
    This report has not been published by the U.S. Department of Justice.
    To provide better customer service, NCJRS has made this Federallyfunded grant final report available electronically in addition to
    traditional paper copies.

    Data collection activities were further refined in 2004, yet no substantive explanation of
    how estimates are generated were provided. In 2004, the U.S. government reported that Monte
    Carlo simulation technique was used to help generate estimates (U.S. Department of Justice,
    2004), but provided no further elucidation on the specifics of the model or the data employed in
    it. A recent GAO report calls into question U.S. government estimates, stating “The accuracy of
    the estimates is in doubt because of methodological weaknesses, gaps in data, and numerical
    discrepancies.” (GAO, 2006, pg. 2) While researchers conducting studies on the magnitude of
    human trafficking are provided with explanations for how data are collected, they are not
    provided a detailed description of methods for calculating estimates.
    To find additional estimates of the prevalence of human trafficking i

    And out of interest the lady in the video outed by the Ruhama rewarded reporter is now on radio in Ireland. Her life has been basically trashed. She is a migrant but not trafficked not forced just a woman trying to make a living

  23. theredneck
    5 March, 2013

    –This link on child prostitution in the USA. Firstly what has child abuse to to with sex slaves? or adult sex work. This is paedophilia.–
    What does child abuse have to do with sex slaves? Quite a bit, seeing as the average age for someone being forced into the sex trade is 12. The link also notes several studies showing that girls, rather than women, are forced into the sex trade.

    –and the figures mentioned are not validated by facts by the way.–
    Except, of couse, the evidence I presented.

    –And anyway if I did give you links you wouldn’t read them anyway would you–
    I’m not going to read through a hundred pages of slop, but I read enough to see studies that have nothing to do with the point you’re claiming the back up

    –As I have said nothing that I am going to say or any sex worker says will convince you that your obsession that the majority of sex workers are slaves is just wrong.–
    Actual proof that isn’t some puff-piece by a pro-prostitution advocate might. For example, you should tell me why I should trust an anonymous blogger over CNN, the BBC, the UN, the FBI, Cornell University, etc., etc., etc.

    –Again I repeat there is no evidence that is independently authenticated to support these accusations.–
    Repeat it all you want–the evidence shows othewise.

    –Without looking at any sex worker database I did one google search and found this.–
    That it’s hard to find out how many sex-slaves there are. Yet, you’re going to extrapolate from this to claim there are virtually none.

    –And out of interest the lady in the video outed by the Ruhama rewarded reporter–
    A reporter rewarded four years before, for something obviously unrelated. Do you have ANY arguments that aren’t a sad attempt at ad hominem?

  24. Douglas Fox
    5 March, 2013

    Dear Redneck,

    ROFL

    I think the easiest thing to say in this situation is” Yes of course dear” :-)

  25. theredneck
    5 March, 2013

    I take it that was an answer to my last question.

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